Good points. I can appreciate you kept it to those 3 points. I think that critique is fair. What is healthy for 1 individual can be very unhealthy for another. (Which is why I hate the way some are religious about “their” diet). I was vegan for 1.5 years before throwing in the towel. I learned a lot though.
1: Not everyone has the biology for it. Everyone needs to find what works for them (don’t convince an eskimo who lives on whale blubber to be vegan). We’ve all evolved differently with what we can digest.
2: The honeymoon period is typically 3-6 months where you eat more plant fiber and feel lighter. This often leads to feeling great at first.
3: Lethargy is real. I got to where I could not sustain high intensity exercise or longer activities. For me, I certainly felt anemic no matter what I tried.
4: Despite carefully supplementing and thinking I was getting enough nutrients, those cell walls plants have make it harder to absorb and are less bioavailable. So you may not be getting as much protein absorption as one thinks. No matter how much plant protein I ate, I could not stop my muscle atrophy despite working out.
5: We became vegan because of going down the rabbit hole of YouTube videos and documentaries on factory farming. But I was horrified to learn how many lives are killed to eat 1 avocado. Let alone all the other needed mono crops to sustain the diet. When you plow fields, you murder everything.
6: After I went on a mountain bike ride one morning after 1.5 years in, and couldn’t get off the couch all day, I quit. I ate 1 burger, and it was like a shot of cocaine.
7: If all lives matter, then 1 ethically raised free ranging cow will feed my family for about 3 months. Compared to the 10’s of thousands of small rodents, birds and insects that had to die for my veggies.
8: I found after 3 months in I was relying on highly processed supplements to attempt to maintain my nutrition levels. (1 of your points). It was very difficult to stay satiated so I eventually found myself snacking on a lot of packaged foods.
9: People will say “their” diet works and give studies based on a typical American diet. But if all you did was eat grass you’d still probably be healthier than typical Americans.
10: Vegans will say I did the diet wrong. 😂
I guess the real goal is to find foods that work for you that are hopefully healthy, sustainable, and ethically sourced. And then give everyone grace given people’s differing circumstances.
The bioavailability element is tough because plants are hard to get nutrients from and often have some pretty crazy toxins. I was always suprised when I realized how much our brains likely grew because of adding meat to our diet due to the incredible nutrient density.
Factory animal farming is atrocious. However monocrop farming is equally bad. It just depends on where you draw the line for what dies. Personally watching how till monocrop farming destroys the entire biome of the soil transitioning it from a complex organism to dead matter was crazy.
I experimented with the Whole Food Plant Based (aka vegan but less sanctimonious about it) way of eating for about two years. This type of veganism eschews the Impossible Burgers, Oreos, and other vegan junk foods in favor of a LOT of beans, lentils, and other legumes, fruits and vegetables. You're really supposed to not use oils at all, on the theory that oils are "processed" foods. So fats are obtained from things like avocados, nuts, seeds, etc.. I rebelled against the no-oil rule; as it is just really hard to make foods taste good without use of some sort of oils for cooking. I
I was constantly bloated, gassy and nauseous; I was told that these symptoms would abate as my digestive system adapted to the high volume of fiber. It never adapted.
I was also ravenously hungry, despite my stomach being upset most of the time. I suspect it had to do with the fact that as a shortish middle-aged lady, I had to be conscious of my caloric intake - and since beans and legumes are not particularly protein-dense, it's hard to hit your protein macros without going significantly over on calories. I mountain bike and lift weights, so my protein requirements are higher than a sedentary individual. "You don't really need that much protein! It's all a lie!" was the message from WFPB advocates; but I noticed my muscle mass and strength declining.
After two years, my stomach was still constantly upset, I was still bloated and uncomfortable yet oddly hungry, and now I was diagnosed with IBS. In desperation, I did a complete 180 and tried the carnivore diet for a couple weeks. Within three days the bloat was gone, I was "regular" again, and I felt significantly better both mentally and physically.
Since then, I have stayed on a balanced diet which includes animal products as well as a ton of vegetables and fruits; the only things I limit are sugar and processed food.
To my knowledge, there is not a single traditional culture that was fully vegan (there are certainly groups that have traditionally been mostly or fully vegetarian, but who still ate cheese and eggs).
I do know people who have done well on vegan diets, but I am clearly not one of those people.
Great insights. I've also known people who have had success with Vegan but they still shifted off after a short time. I haven't found a healthy vegan who has been on the diet for over 20 years. I do think you hit on something that some people can process food differently. For example, I'm Dutch and can process raw milk much better than 75% of the human population. That doesn't mean everyone should drink milk as they're lacto intollerant and that doesn't mean I shouldn't drink milk because no-one else can process it.
Not vegan as in without animal protein. Even Jainism, the go-to uses dairy as part of their religious ceremonies. Only recently, with the advent of processing, labs, and global trade, have they been able to remove the dairy.
15 years a vegan - and a professional athlete. I appreciate reading your perspectives - however I wouldn’t say using personal examples of who you know and your objective view of healthy as scientific example. It’s like me saying I know a guy who ate red meat every day and then he got cancer - I cannot say for sure it’s a causal relationship but it’s an attention grabbing statement. As others have mentioned there are many cultures who thrive off a mostly vegan diet, and the supplement industry doesn’t rely only on vegans to stay afloat, that’s for sure. In fact the luxury of the first world is that we have access to factory farmed meat at every single meal every single day. We have access to milk of other animals in almost every meal. So if what is “natural” is an argument then the standard American diet is far from natural. I accept that I live in a country where I have choice and access to whatever food I want. So if I have that privilege why not then CHOOSE foods that do not equate animal cruelty, suffering, unsustainable farming practices and health consequences. If ominvores also eat the same processed shit I do, is it at least not worth striving for less harm? You will find most ethical vegans also embrace other sustainable practices, “dieting” vegans will probably not remain vegan, and move onto the next fad diet. I’d rather take a processed b12 pill than know that I need to rely on someone else slaughtering a frightened animal, which is ironically also filled with artificial processed feed, and medicines. . It comes down to what is humane and sustainable. Feed the soy to the humans. Use lab grown shit for nutrients for all I care, evolve away from cruelty and excess. If we lived In a society where we all owned one cow and we could sustainably share that cow amongst our close family (some cultures do live like this) then perhaps my diet choice would look different. But we don’t live like that, especially in the West, so let’s adapt, ethically.
Good points. If I were to send a colony to Mars, the diet would look a lot more vegan than carnivore. The bigger question is whether we fully understand the physiological consequences. I'm not criticizing the vegan diet writ large trying to contextualize it.
There are a lot of questions about the sustainability and harmlessness of vegan. After my uncle harvests his soy and corn fields, carrion birds flock in for a reason.
If you're OK with the supplementations and synthetic processing that's fine. I too am bothered by how bad our entire food supply is from meat to veggies. My observations of veganism shouldn't be construed to a promotion of our food supply.
We have to be skeptical of observational studies because of confounding variables, but some of the most interesting and high-quality studies in this space come from decades of Adventist health studies, which neutralize many of those variables by looking at members of a shared faith culture that receive the same health-focused message from their faith and church leaders.
The average Adventist lives years longer than the average Californian.
And among the Adventists:
The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs nonvegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80-0.97).
The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01);
in lacto-ovo–vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00);
in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13)
I think all this is tentative. And some confounding variables are hard to correct for. But there's very reason to think that directionally, this sort of whole foods-focused vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, or vegan diet is just fine, if not completely optimal.
Compared to most fad diets, it's a massive step up. I'd argue that anyone claiming definitively what exactly must be consumed, in what ratio, is going more more on dogma than precise science.
I'm not a vegan because I don't hold the ideology, and you know from my writing how I feel about self-labeling making us stupid.
But I have severe autoimmune issues and allergies and avoid meat and dairy because it keeps my colitis in remission while avoiding several other problems. And even though I can eat eggs and honey, I rarely do this, and perhaps consume them twice a year on average. I take a B12 pill. I get most of my protein from whole legumes, but have no problem taking a scoop of pea protein powder on days where it's required to reach my .80 to .90 g / pound protein target. Outside of this, I eat very little of the processed foods you spend a lot time talking about in this article as if its an inextricable element of a plant-based diet. If I go visit family I'll probably be served a beyond burger and will eat it, but it's not really a thing for me. Most of that stuff didn't even exist when i started twenty years ago. I do like eating some tofu perhaps once a week, but the health benefits are well established and rather lindy after centuries of tofu eating in China and Japan.
Despite this, my health is excellent after 20 years on variations of this regime, and I perform very well athletically in all my pursuits.
I'm all for calling out the problems of processed food, but I'm not sure there's a strong body of evidence pointing out the downsides of a well-planned vegan diet. Compared to the dietary idiocy of the American public, whatever marginal benefit that might accrue from adding small amounts of animal products seems so statistically small that I'm not sure it's worth getting worked up about.
I agree that most vegans don't eat well. But then most omnivorous Americans make even poorer food choices, statistically speaking.
There's a whole series of good Adventist studies, but here's one to start with:
I'd only be careful in conflating vegan with vegetarian. Adventists are vegetarian. I'm not criticizing vegetarian diets at all. I do find that 95% of arguments for veganism rely on studies of vegetarianism.
If you read those studies you'll find that many Adventists are vegans, though more are vegetarians of various stripes. There's a combined vegetarian category that combines the vegans and vegetarians, but they also break out the smaller vegan group.
Valid. Again, not saying it's a terrible diet. Just that it requires some pretty advanced technologies to achieve it. Who knows what a Martian diet may look like. It might be healthier but it certainly requires a deep understanding of human biology and gastroenterology.
I am not here to criticize anyone’s food choices or diet since I firmly believe that all diets have the potential for deficiencies if they are not balanced with other foods or fortified with the lacking vitamins and minerals. Every diet can be nutritionally adequate, but it requires planning to ensure the body receives all the essential nutrients.
I asked ChatGPT to list possible deficiencies across several diets, and here is what I got:
1. Vegetarian Diet Deficiencies
- Vitamin B12: Exclusion of meat and fish, which are primary sources of B12.
- Iron: Lack of heme iron from meat; plant-based iron (non-heme) is less bioavailable.
- Zinc: Lower absorption from plant sources due to phytates in legumes and grains.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Absence of EPA and DHA, found in fish.
- Protein: May occur if there is insufficient variety in plant-based sources (e.g., legumes, nuts, seeds, and grains).
2. Vegan Diet Deficiencies
- Vitamin B12: Complete exclusion of animal products leaves no natural source of B12.
- Iron: Non-heme iron is less efficiently absorbed than heme iron.
- Calcium: Lack of dairy products, a significant calcium source in many diets.
- Vitamin D: Vegan diets usually exclude fortified dairy or fish; sunlight may not always suffice.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: No direct sources of EPA/DHA; ALA from seeds like flax and chia is inefficiently converted.
- Zinc: Phytates in plant-based foods inhibit zinc absorption.
- Iodine: No fish or dairy, and iodized salt is often overlooked.
- Iron: Infrequent consumption of meat may lead to insufficient iron intake.
- Vitamin B12: Irregular intake of animal products can lead to low B12 levels.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Limited fish consumption may result in insufficient EPA/DHA intake.
- Calcium and Vitamin D: Limited dairy intake can reduce calcium and vitamin D levels.
4. Non-vegetarian diet Deficiencies
Fiber: Low whole grains, fruits, and vegetables can lead to insufficient dietary fiber.
- Vitamin C: Lack of fruits and vegetables may reduce intake of this essential vitamin.
- Folate: Limited leafy greens and legumes consumption can cause folate deficiencies.
- Magnesium: Low nuts, seeds, and whole grains intake can result in magnesium deficiency.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Many non-vegetarians don’t consume enough fatty fish, leading to low EPA/DHA levels.
As seen above, any diet can result in multiple deficiencies if not planned correctly. Additionally, many diets rely on a global food supply in today's interconnected world. This reality makes it even more important for first- and non-first-world individuals to ensure that their nutrient needs are met, whether through locally available foods, imports, or fortified products.
Now, let me introduce you to a religion in India that has existed for around 2,500 years and its unique dietary practices. The religion is Jainism (https://tinyurl.com/muurkzbh)), and its diet is one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated vegetarianism. Jainism advocates for a lacto-vegetarian diet, which excludes meat, fish, eggs, and even root and underground vegetables such as potatoes, garlic, onions, carrots, and mushrooms. The exclusion of root vegetables is based on the desire to avoid injuring small insects and microorganisms in the soil and prevent harm to the entire plant by uprooting it.
A lacto-vegetarian diet, as practiced by Jains, includes dairy products such as milk, yogurt, butter, cheese (made without animal rennet), cream, kefir, and honey. However, in recent decades, some followers of Jainism have transitioned away from consuming dairy products entirely due to concerns about the violence involved in modern industrial dairy farming practices. These individuals follow a diet beyond veganism, reflecting their deep commitment to the principle of Ahinsa(non-violence). So, it’s important to note that this shift is not limited to first-world countries but has also occurred in non-first-world regions.
Having observed many lacto-vegetarians and vegetarians, I’ve noticed that while deficiencies such as Vitamin D are relatively common, most individuals who consume a balanced lacto-vegetarian diet live long and healthy lives. The key to any diet's success lies in how well it is balanced and how deficiencies are addressed.
I do not believe that any one diet is inherently superior to another. Instead, it is about recognizing the limitations of your chosen diet and taking conscious steps to supplement or balance what is missing. Whether through fortified foods, supplements, or careful planning, balancing your diet makes the difference.
Sometimes, I feel you are trying to test the limit of Cunningham's Law with some of your posts: "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."
The following graphic represents what happens after that:
Jainism is the go-to answer but for long term vegan cultures but, as you've pointed out, Jainism relied on animal protein in the form of Milk which is totally legit. Now that they have international trade and the ability for laboratory and processed proteins, they can eliminate milk from their diet but until that, they relied on Milk.
My goal wasn't to 'debunk' veganism but to contextualize what's required for veganism. If a person is cool with those conditions, more power to them. In fact, if I were to populate Mars, likely the diet would look a lot more vegan because I don't think we could haul animals there very well at least for the near term.
However, it's important to note that it's not a diet that we evolved eating, nor is it one we can do without modern technologies and international trade.
I have seen a pattern since the start of this year, so I thought I would ask. I have worked with a few other people who do this, so I am comfortable with people dropping bombs and seeing how everyone around them reacts. I do use it sometimes, too, when it is the only way to make people see the light.
I mean, this one and the one about Gen X were a bit like that. I've done similar in the past. One coming up in two weeks is on Algowhoring so batton down the hatches! 😄 But sacred cows to make the best burgers don't they?
That said, My three postulates for this essay are carrying through the critique quite well. It's not an issue per se but what I find facinating is how riled up it's gotten people when they even think there is a critique.
One person has come out and said something along the lines of "True, and I'm OK with that." To which I'm totally cool with that. It's kind of like religion. I've poked at how people interpret the bible literally. I don't care what they believe as long as people realize what they believe and why.
That a decent number got testy about this essay tells me they haven't really considered the full implications of Veganism. Just like poking at Christianity doens't mean the othe religions don't have their own problems, so too poking at veganism isn't meant to say the other diets are amazing.
I believe that we should look at everything important to us from our lenses. Here is the quote that I came across recently along with the Royal Society motto “Do not take anyone's word for it”:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” - Buddha
I haven't read until the end yet, but you should look into B12 in meat. Because it's not there and has to be artificially added to animal diet, because we used too much of antibiotics and destroyed bacteria that makes it in the ground.
So even if you eat meat your b12 comes from fortification.
It might not be the case when people have livestock on their own small farms, but is definitely true for most of the meat production.
I did a little more research and the natural source for B12 in beef are the bacteria cultivated with a grass dirt. Grass fed beef doesn't need to be supplemented.
I do like your analyses in general and I appreciate your work (part of my selected RSS feed), so I hope to change your mind regarding some of the facts you present here.
> Veganism is pretty simple. You eat nothing that has animal protein of any nature.
I would add **as is possible and practicable**. On a desert island with a pig I would eat the pig, if globalism and free trade would halt or civilization collapsed and in result it's not practical to eat Vegan diet no one should expect Vegans to not eat animal products. I would even say that you can consume animal products and be Vegan in that case (if it's not possible nor practicable otherwise), although this is probably more controversial take.
I would not say it's a first-world luxury, but it's much easier to strive on Vegan diet now than ever. It is probably more of a first-world luxury to eat meat every day than being Vegan. Why the Veganism as we know is more prevalent in West is that our philosophies around freedoms are easily transferable to non-human animals and we have a good philosophical foundations (both religious and secular) for it.
In countries where the philosophical foundations were also established people ate Vegan/Vegetarian diets even before globalization and technological progress (Buddhism in india, china, taiwan, vietnam ...).
#1: Whole Foods
Almost everyone is eating some amount of non-whole foods, so I am not sure why is it important if we are able to eat whole food only Vegan diet. I think the more interesting question is if it's possible to eat almost whole food diet and the answer is yes and pretty easily.
* Tofu, Tempeh for protein (how are these not mentioned?)
* B12 pill
* Exercise
Nobody needs to add highly concentrated pea protein nor coconut oil to their diet to stay healthy. If you have links saying otherwise please send them to me I stand corrected.
#2: Globalized food chain
You are correct that origins of different plants needed for healthy Vegan diet were brought from all over the word, but that does not mean it is still like that. US is the second biggest producer of soy beans for example.
#3: Ultra-processing
If you want you can completely skip ultra-processed foods in your diet. I do tend to eat some for both taste and convenience.
For anecdotal evidence there are non first-world countries which had practitioners of Veganism (Pure vegetarianism) for 100s of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
I'm mostly poking at the vegan is natural crowd. I will poke at the issues with our normal diet as well. There are huge issues like sugar which we looked at not long ago.
As far as I can find, you really couldn't have been pure vegan 50 years ago let alone 100 years ago.
Also not suggesting the typical diet is good by any means. I'm planning to write more on that in the future but I've already poked pretty hard at sugar.
While I appreciate the time and energy that went into this, I suggest you now take a similar approach to every diet and see where that leads you. 🤣 I’m not trying to be an asshole and am not a vegan, but nearly every diet today has uncomfortable truths. Nearly every diet requires a massive amount of outsourcing and processing. That’s not inherently good or bad, it just is.
I also think it’s important to note that I know a great many vegans who’ve been fairly healthy for 30+ years. Are they ridiculous? Sure, but so are people who can’t shut up about bacon or people who endlessly experiment with craft brewing. In fact, everyone I know who’s been avidly at anything for decades rarely talks endlessly about it unless specifically asked. And then… brace yourself for the flood of gabbing lol. This is true across diet, exercise, music, art, politics, history, etc. are their exceptions? Sure. But not as many as the general population assumes. The religious comparison is apt in many ways, but it can be made towards anything that anyone cares deeply about IMO.
Good point. I'm planning to poke at more. We already looked at sugar writ large and we've looked at fasting. What I'm really reacting to here is the vegan trip that it's natural, sustainable, whole foods, and healthy. It really isn't. Now, is it better than McDonalds? Yes.
Lol. Fine! 🤣 I just looked at the easy target first. I want to do one how the criticality of cholesterol for brain health or how low fat is neither heart healthy nor especially brain healthy.
I’m trying to think of a funny “grumpy” reply but am falling short. Maybe I need to pay more attention to my fats. As a dad, I’m mostly eating leftovers my kids won’t eat. Too much Mac n Cheese has ruined me!🤣
All connected to the fact that we huemans immorally extort each other for permission to share a planet NONE of us actually own through capitalism specifically real estate. . . which all food is grown from 🤟🏿🖖🏾
Good points. I can appreciate you kept it to those 3 points. I think that critique is fair. What is healthy for 1 individual can be very unhealthy for another. (Which is why I hate the way some are religious about “their” diet). I was vegan for 1.5 years before throwing in the towel. I learned a lot though.
1: Not everyone has the biology for it. Everyone needs to find what works for them (don’t convince an eskimo who lives on whale blubber to be vegan). We’ve all evolved differently with what we can digest.
2: The honeymoon period is typically 3-6 months where you eat more plant fiber and feel lighter. This often leads to feeling great at first.
3: Lethargy is real. I got to where I could not sustain high intensity exercise or longer activities. For me, I certainly felt anemic no matter what I tried.
4: Despite carefully supplementing and thinking I was getting enough nutrients, those cell walls plants have make it harder to absorb and are less bioavailable. So you may not be getting as much protein absorption as one thinks. No matter how much plant protein I ate, I could not stop my muscle atrophy despite working out.
5: We became vegan because of going down the rabbit hole of YouTube videos and documentaries on factory farming. But I was horrified to learn how many lives are killed to eat 1 avocado. Let alone all the other needed mono crops to sustain the diet. When you plow fields, you murder everything.
6: After I went on a mountain bike ride one morning after 1.5 years in, and couldn’t get off the couch all day, I quit. I ate 1 burger, and it was like a shot of cocaine.
7: If all lives matter, then 1 ethically raised free ranging cow will feed my family for about 3 months. Compared to the 10’s of thousands of small rodents, birds and insects that had to die for my veggies.
8: I found after 3 months in I was relying on highly processed supplements to attempt to maintain my nutrition levels. (1 of your points). It was very difficult to stay satiated so I eventually found myself snacking on a lot of packaged foods.
9: People will say “their” diet works and give studies based on a typical American diet. But if all you did was eat grass you’d still probably be healthier than typical Americans.
10: Vegans will say I did the diet wrong. 😂
I guess the real goal is to find foods that work for you that are hopefully healthy, sustainable, and ethically sourced. And then give everyone grace given people’s differing circumstances.
The bioavailability element is tough because plants are hard to get nutrients from and often have some pretty crazy toxins. I was always suprised when I realized how much our brains likely grew because of adding meat to our diet due to the incredible nutrient density.
Factory animal farming is atrocious. However monocrop farming is equally bad. It just depends on where you draw the line for what dies. Personally watching how till monocrop farming destroys the entire biome of the soil transitioning it from a complex organism to dead matter was crazy.
I experimented with the Whole Food Plant Based (aka vegan but less sanctimonious about it) way of eating for about two years. This type of veganism eschews the Impossible Burgers, Oreos, and other vegan junk foods in favor of a LOT of beans, lentils, and other legumes, fruits and vegetables. You're really supposed to not use oils at all, on the theory that oils are "processed" foods. So fats are obtained from things like avocados, nuts, seeds, etc.. I rebelled against the no-oil rule; as it is just really hard to make foods taste good without use of some sort of oils for cooking. I
I was constantly bloated, gassy and nauseous; I was told that these symptoms would abate as my digestive system adapted to the high volume of fiber. It never adapted.
I was also ravenously hungry, despite my stomach being upset most of the time. I suspect it had to do with the fact that as a shortish middle-aged lady, I had to be conscious of my caloric intake - and since beans and legumes are not particularly protein-dense, it's hard to hit your protein macros without going significantly over on calories. I mountain bike and lift weights, so my protein requirements are higher than a sedentary individual. "You don't really need that much protein! It's all a lie!" was the message from WFPB advocates; but I noticed my muscle mass and strength declining.
After two years, my stomach was still constantly upset, I was still bloated and uncomfortable yet oddly hungry, and now I was diagnosed with IBS. In desperation, I did a complete 180 and tried the carnivore diet for a couple weeks. Within three days the bloat was gone, I was "regular" again, and I felt significantly better both mentally and physically.
Since then, I have stayed on a balanced diet which includes animal products as well as a ton of vegetables and fruits; the only things I limit are sugar and processed food.
To my knowledge, there is not a single traditional culture that was fully vegan (there are certainly groups that have traditionally been mostly or fully vegetarian, but who still ate cheese and eggs).
I do know people who have done well on vegan diets, but I am clearly not one of those people.
Same
Great insights. I've also known people who have had success with Vegan but they still shifted off after a short time. I haven't found a healthy vegan who has been on the diet for over 20 years. I do think you hit on something that some people can process food differently. For example, I'm Dutch and can process raw milk much better than 75% of the human population. That doesn't mean everyone should drink milk as they're lacto intollerant and that doesn't mean I shouldn't drink milk because no-one else can process it.
Veganism is "A first-world luxury?
No way. Its been common in India for example for many centuries.
Not vegan as in without animal protein. Even Jainism, the go-to uses dairy as part of their religious ceremonies. Only recently, with the advent of processing, labs, and global trade, have they been able to remove the dairy.
15 years a vegan - and a professional athlete. I appreciate reading your perspectives - however I wouldn’t say using personal examples of who you know and your objective view of healthy as scientific example. It’s like me saying I know a guy who ate red meat every day and then he got cancer - I cannot say for sure it’s a causal relationship but it’s an attention grabbing statement. As others have mentioned there are many cultures who thrive off a mostly vegan diet, and the supplement industry doesn’t rely only on vegans to stay afloat, that’s for sure. In fact the luxury of the first world is that we have access to factory farmed meat at every single meal every single day. We have access to milk of other animals in almost every meal. So if what is “natural” is an argument then the standard American diet is far from natural. I accept that I live in a country where I have choice and access to whatever food I want. So if I have that privilege why not then CHOOSE foods that do not equate animal cruelty, suffering, unsustainable farming practices and health consequences. If ominvores also eat the same processed shit I do, is it at least not worth striving for less harm? You will find most ethical vegans also embrace other sustainable practices, “dieting” vegans will probably not remain vegan, and move onto the next fad diet. I’d rather take a processed b12 pill than know that I need to rely on someone else slaughtering a frightened animal, which is ironically also filled with artificial processed feed, and medicines. . It comes down to what is humane and sustainable. Feed the soy to the humans. Use lab grown shit for nutrients for all I care, evolve away from cruelty and excess. If we lived In a society where we all owned one cow and we could sustainably share that cow amongst our close family (some cultures do live like this) then perhaps my diet choice would look different. But we don’t live like that, especially in the West, so let’s adapt, ethically.
Good points. If I were to send a colony to Mars, the diet would look a lot more vegan than carnivore. The bigger question is whether we fully understand the physiological consequences. I'm not criticizing the vegan diet writ large trying to contextualize it.
There are a lot of questions about the sustainability and harmlessness of vegan. After my uncle harvests his soy and corn fields, carrion birds flock in for a reason.
If you're OK with the supplementations and synthetic processing that's fine. I too am bothered by how bad our entire food supply is from meat to veggies. My observations of veganism shouldn't be construed to a promotion of our food supply.
We have to be skeptical of observational studies because of confounding variables, but some of the most interesting and high-quality studies in this space come from decades of Adventist health studies, which neutralize many of those variables by looking at members of a shared faith culture that receive the same health-focused message from their faith and church leaders.
The average Adventist lives years longer than the average Californian.
And among the Adventists:
The adjusted hazard ratio (HR) for all-cause mortality in all vegetarians combined vs nonvegetarians was 0.88 (95% CI, 0.80-0.97).
The adjusted HR for all-cause mortality in vegans was 0.85 (95% CI, 0.73-1.01);
in lacto-ovo–vegetarians, 0.91 (95% CI, 0.82-1.00);
in pesco-vegetarians, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.69-0.94); and in semi-vegetarians, 0.92 (95% CI, 0.75-1.13)
I think all this is tentative. And some confounding variables are hard to correct for. But there's very reason to think that directionally, this sort of whole foods-focused vegetarian, pesco-vegetarian, or vegan diet is just fine, if not completely optimal.
Compared to most fad diets, it's a massive step up. I'd argue that anyone claiming definitively what exactly must be consumed, in what ratio, is going more more on dogma than precise science.
I'm not a vegan because I don't hold the ideology, and you know from my writing how I feel about self-labeling making us stupid.
But I have severe autoimmune issues and allergies and avoid meat and dairy because it keeps my colitis in remission while avoiding several other problems. And even though I can eat eggs and honey, I rarely do this, and perhaps consume them twice a year on average. I take a B12 pill. I get most of my protein from whole legumes, but have no problem taking a scoop of pea protein powder on days where it's required to reach my .80 to .90 g / pound protein target. Outside of this, I eat very little of the processed foods you spend a lot time talking about in this article as if its an inextricable element of a plant-based diet. If I go visit family I'll probably be served a beyond burger and will eat it, but it's not really a thing for me. Most of that stuff didn't even exist when i started twenty years ago. I do like eating some tofu perhaps once a week, but the health benefits are well established and rather lindy after centuries of tofu eating in China and Japan.
Despite this, my health is excellent after 20 years on variations of this regime, and I perform very well athletically in all my pursuits.
I'm all for calling out the problems of processed food, but I'm not sure there's a strong body of evidence pointing out the downsides of a well-planned vegan diet. Compared to the dietary idiocy of the American public, whatever marginal benefit that might accrue from adding small amounts of animal products seems so statistically small that I'm not sure it's worth getting worked up about.
I agree that most vegans don't eat well. But then most omnivorous Americans make even poorer food choices, statistically speaking.
There's a whole series of good Adventist studies, but here's one to start with:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/1710093?utm_source=chatgpt.com
I'd only be careful in conflating vegan with vegetarian. Adventists are vegetarian. I'm not criticizing vegetarian diets at all. I do find that 95% of arguments for veganism rely on studies of vegetarianism.
If you read those studies you'll find that many Adventists are vegans, though more are vegetarians of various stripes. There's a combined vegetarian category that combines the vegans and vegetarians, but they also break out the smaller vegan group.
Valid. Again, not saying it's a terrible diet. Just that it requires some pretty advanced technologies to achieve it. Who knows what a Martian diet may look like. It might be healthier but it certainly requires a deep understanding of human biology and gastroenterology.
I am not here to criticize anyone’s food choices or diet since I firmly believe that all diets have the potential for deficiencies if they are not balanced with other foods or fortified with the lacking vitamins and minerals. Every diet can be nutritionally adequate, but it requires planning to ensure the body receives all the essential nutrients.
I asked ChatGPT to list possible deficiencies across several diets, and here is what I got:
1. Vegetarian Diet Deficiencies
- Vitamin B12: Exclusion of meat and fish, which are primary sources of B12.
- Iron: Lack of heme iron from meat; plant-based iron (non-heme) is less bioavailable.
- Zinc: Lower absorption from plant sources due to phytates in legumes and grains.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Absence of EPA and DHA, found in fish.
- Protein: May occur if there is insufficient variety in plant-based sources (e.g., legumes, nuts, seeds, and grains).
2. Vegan Diet Deficiencies
- Vitamin B12: Complete exclusion of animal products leaves no natural source of B12.
- Iron: Non-heme iron is less efficiently absorbed than heme iron.
- Calcium: Lack of dairy products, a significant calcium source in many diets.
- Vitamin D: Vegan diets usually exclude fortified dairy or fish; sunlight may not always suffice.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: No direct sources of EPA/DHA; ALA from seeds like flax and chia is inefficiently converted.
- Zinc: Phytates in plant-based foods inhibit zinc absorption.
- Iodine: No fish or dairy, and iodized salt is often overlooked.
3. Semi-Vegetarian (Flexitarian) Diet Deficiencies
- Iron: Infrequent consumption of meat may lead to insufficient iron intake.
- Vitamin B12: Irregular intake of animal products can lead to low B12 levels.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Limited fish consumption may result in insufficient EPA/DHA intake.
- Calcium and Vitamin D: Limited dairy intake can reduce calcium and vitamin D levels.
4. Non-vegetarian diet Deficiencies
Fiber: Low whole grains, fruits, and vegetables can lead to insufficient dietary fiber.
- Vitamin C: Lack of fruits and vegetables may reduce intake of this essential vitamin.
- Folate: Limited leafy greens and legumes consumption can cause folate deficiencies.
- Magnesium: Low nuts, seeds, and whole grains intake can result in magnesium deficiency.
- Omega-3 Fatty Acids: Many non-vegetarians don’t consume enough fatty fish, leading to low EPA/DHA levels.
As seen above, any diet can result in multiple deficiencies if not planned correctly. Additionally, many diets rely on a global food supply in today's interconnected world. This reality makes it even more important for first- and non-first-world individuals to ensure that their nutrient needs are met, whether through locally available foods, imports, or fortified products.
Now, let me introduce you to a religion in India that has existed for around 2,500 years and its unique dietary practices. The religion is Jainism (https://tinyurl.com/muurkzbh)), and its diet is one of the most rigorous forms of spiritually motivated vegetarianism. Jainism advocates for a lacto-vegetarian diet, which excludes meat, fish, eggs, and even root and underground vegetables such as potatoes, garlic, onions, carrots, and mushrooms. The exclusion of root vegetables is based on the desire to avoid injuring small insects and microorganisms in the soil and prevent harm to the entire plant by uprooting it.
A lacto-vegetarian diet, as practiced by Jains, includes dairy products such as milk, yogurt, butter, cheese (made without animal rennet), cream, kefir, and honey. However, in recent decades, some followers of Jainism have transitioned away from consuming dairy products entirely due to concerns about the violence involved in modern industrial dairy farming practices. These individuals follow a diet beyond veganism, reflecting their deep commitment to the principle of Ahinsa(non-violence). So, it’s important to note that this shift is not limited to first-world countries but has also occurred in non-first-world regions.
Having observed many lacto-vegetarians and vegetarians, I’ve noticed that while deficiencies such as Vitamin D are relatively common, most individuals who consume a balanced lacto-vegetarian diet live long and healthy lives. The key to any diet's success lies in how well it is balanced and how deficiencies are addressed.
I do not believe that any one diet is inherently superior to another. Instead, it is about recognizing the limitations of your chosen diet and taking conscious steps to supplement or balance what is missing. Whether through fortified foods, supplements, or careful planning, balancing your diet makes the difference.
Beautiful and informative post !!!
Thanks very much 👍👍👍 🔥🔥🔥 (NON-violent flame 🤣)
Thanks!
Awesome insight and additions to the conversation. I think vegan can be a useful diet but requires a deeper understanding of what the foundation is.
Sometimes, I feel you are trying to test the limit of Cunningham's Law with some of your posts: "The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer."
The following graphic represents what happens after that:
https://images.app.goo.gl/LNLZRVj46wxf9mjC7
😄
Sometimes it is the best way. 😄
Jainism is the go-to answer but for long term vegan cultures but, as you've pointed out, Jainism relied on animal protein in the form of Milk which is totally legit. Now that they have international trade and the ability for laboratory and processed proteins, they can eliminate milk from their diet but until that, they relied on Milk.
My goal wasn't to 'debunk' veganism but to contextualize what's required for veganism. If a person is cool with those conditions, more power to them. In fact, if I were to populate Mars, likely the diet would look a lot more vegan because I don't think we could haul animals there very well at least for the near term.
However, it's important to note that it's not a diet that we evolved eating, nor is it one we can do without modern technologies and international trade.
I have seen a pattern since the start of this year, so I thought I would ask. I have worked with a few other people who do this, so I am comfortable with people dropping bombs and seeing how everyone around them reacts. I do use it sometimes, too, when it is the only way to make people see the light.
I mean, this one and the one about Gen X were a bit like that. I've done similar in the past. One coming up in two weeks is on Algowhoring so batton down the hatches! 😄 But sacred cows to make the best burgers don't they?
That said, My three postulates for this essay are carrying through the critique quite well. It's not an issue per se but what I find facinating is how riled up it's gotten people when they even think there is a critique.
One person has come out and said something along the lines of "True, and I'm OK with that." To which I'm totally cool with that. It's kind of like religion. I've poked at how people interpret the bible literally. I don't care what they believe as long as people realize what they believe and why.
That a decent number got testy about this essay tells me they haven't really considered the full implications of Veganism. Just like poking at Christianity doens't mean the othe religions don't have their own problems, so too poking at veganism isn't meant to say the other diets are amazing.
I believe that we should look at everything important to us from our lenses. Here is the quote that I came across recently along with the Royal Society motto “Do not take anyone's word for it”:
“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” - Buddha
I haven't read until the end yet, but you should look into B12 in meat. Because it's not there and has to be artificially added to animal diet, because we used too much of antibiotics and destroyed bacteria that makes it in the ground.
So even if you eat meat your b12 comes from fortification.
It might not be the case when people have livestock on their own small farms, but is definitely true for most of the meat production.
I did a little more research and the natural source for B12 in beef are the bacteria cultivated with a grass dirt. Grass fed beef doesn't need to be supplemented.
I do like your analyses in general and I appreciate your work (part of my selected RSS feed), so I hope to change your mind regarding some of the facts you present here.
> Veganism is pretty simple. You eat nothing that has animal protein of any nature.
I would add **as is possible and practicable**. On a desert island with a pig I would eat the pig, if globalism and free trade would halt or civilization collapsed and in result it's not practical to eat Vegan diet no one should expect Vegans to not eat animal products. I would even say that you can consume animal products and be Vegan in that case (if it's not possible nor practicable otherwise), although this is probably more controversial take.
I would not say it's a first-world luxury, but it's much easier to strive on Vegan diet now than ever. It is probably more of a first-world luxury to eat meat every day than being Vegan. Why the Veganism as we know is more prevalent in West is that our philosophies around freedoms are easily transferable to non-human animals and we have a good philosophical foundations (both religious and secular) for it.
In countries where the philosophical foundations were also established people ate Vegan/Vegetarian diets even before globalization and technological progress (Buddhism in india, china, taiwan, vietnam ...).
#1: Whole Foods
Almost everyone is eating some amount of non-whole foods, so I am not sure why is it important if we are able to eat whole food only Vegan diet. I think the more interesting question is if it's possible to eat almost whole food diet and the answer is yes and pretty easily.
* Tofu, Tempeh for protein (how are these not mentioned?)
* B12 pill
* Exercise
Nobody needs to add highly concentrated pea protein nor coconut oil to their diet to stay healthy. If you have links saying otherwise please send them to me I stand corrected.
#2: Globalized food chain
You are correct that origins of different plants needed for healthy Vegan diet were brought from all over the word, but that does not mean it is still like that. US is the second biggest producer of soy beans for example.
#3: Ultra-processing
If you want you can completely skip ultra-processed foods in your diet. I do tend to eat some for both taste and convenience.
For anecdotal evidence there are non first-world countries which had practitioners of Veganism (Pure vegetarianism) for 100s of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism
I'm mostly poking at the vegan is natural crowd. I will poke at the issues with our normal diet as well. There are huge issues like sugar which we looked at not long ago.
As far as I can find, you really couldn't have been pure vegan 50 years ago let alone 100 years ago.
Also not suggesting the typical diet is good by any means. I'm planning to write more on that in the future but I've already poked pretty hard at sugar.
While I appreciate the time and energy that went into this, I suggest you now take a similar approach to every diet and see where that leads you. 🤣 I’m not trying to be an asshole and am not a vegan, but nearly every diet today has uncomfortable truths. Nearly every diet requires a massive amount of outsourcing and processing. That’s not inherently good or bad, it just is.
I also think it’s important to note that I know a great many vegans who’ve been fairly healthy for 30+ years. Are they ridiculous? Sure, but so are people who can’t shut up about bacon or people who endlessly experiment with craft brewing. In fact, everyone I know who’s been avidly at anything for decades rarely talks endlessly about it unless specifically asked. And then… brace yourself for the flood of gabbing lol. This is true across diet, exercise, music, art, politics, history, etc. are their exceptions? Sure. But not as many as the general population assumes. The religious comparison is apt in many ways, but it can be made towards anything that anyone cares deeply about IMO.
Good point. I'm planning to poke at more. We already looked at sugar writ large and we've looked at fasting. What I'm really reacting to here is the vegan trip that it's natural, sustainable, whole foods, and healthy. It really isn't. Now, is it better than McDonalds? Yes.
Lol. Fine! 🤣 I just looked at the easy target first. I want to do one how the criticality of cholesterol for brain health or how low fat is neither heart healthy nor especially brain healthy.
I’m trying to think of a funny “grumpy” reply but am falling short. Maybe I need to pay more attention to my fats. As a dad, I’m mostly eating leftovers my kids won’t eat. Too much Mac n Cheese has ruined me!🤣
I hear you there. I just top it with a bit-o-steak to complete the package.
"Nearly every diet requires a massive amount of outsourcing and processing." Not paleo.
True but now do the other aspects discussed. 🤣
Every diet can be criticized. That doesn’t mean they’re bad, but I’d argue that nearly every modern diet is riddled with uncomfortable truths.
All connected to the fact that we huemans immorally extort each other for permission to share a planet NONE of us actually own through capitalism specifically real estate. . . which all food is grown from 🤟🏿🖖🏾