You're certainly spot-on about biology being the origin of all this, but I wouldn't mind a follow-up piece where you pick up the torch and talk about how society has morphed the biological evolutionary "desires" to whatever it's turning into today, and why.
We could do a collaboration because, while this was written before yours on the Uterine Lottery, it is a strong counterpoint for that. Maybe a two voice debate on each side with a summary that covers what you recommended here?
Interesting piece and comment! Especially the societal component and how it may impact what is programmed from nature.
I just posted on a similar issue regarding how statistical discrimination (in this case in the real estate market) can perpetuate discrimination and inequality. In this case, it is the beliefs of real estate agents, that might come from experience, result in them not actually listening to the specific requests of buyers/renters but rather assuming what would be better for them. - https://www.nominalnews.com/p/housing-rental-discrimination
I remember a study in Psych 101 that showed attractive people (men and women) are more successful across all industries. Even attractive kindergarten teachers were given higher reviews by kids so this is not a patriarchy problem, it's a human problem.
(In other news, life isn't fair! Tall people are better at basketball!)
Great points. The hard truth is that there's such a thing as evolutionary fittness. What we see, and measure as beauty are markers of that fittness. Why are tall dudes appreciated? Because we can reach the top of the cupboards - clear evolutionary fittness. 😃 (I'm 6'6")
1. I've seen that suggestion but I haven't pulled that thread. I see it in the 'mean girls' trope among others.
2. Male on male beauty is competence and competence also has expression in physical capability. Typically competent men will often also have a poise about them. Even Elon, when he get's his shit together and focuses, strikes a pretty good figure.
Sadly, this entire article is mired by the premise of sexual fitness and the usual heteronormativity that accompanies it. There are more creative ways of approaching this issue that don't depend on white supremacist, patriarchical assumptions and biases endemic in Western thoughts around beauty and biology. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352154620300383
Hi Jo, a person I recently met suggested that a conversation involves asking questions, not making assertions. Your comment was dismissively assertive causing you to appear like you're just having a conversation with yourself to defend your own position. If you were interested in understanding a different perspective, you would exhibit curiosity. But I'll bite. What is a more creative way of approaching this issue?
I'm interested in the word 'creative'. It doesn't seem to fit here. Are you claiming that these other ways of 'approaching the issue' (also not very helpful words) produce more accurate results?
I mean, if you discuss 'heteronormativity' then you basically dismiss all evolutionary processes. Now, I don't believe in evolution myself, but I'm pretty sure that you would reject my ideas even more soundly... but what do you propose as an alternative? If things such as beauty signalling don't produce more successful lines of offspring, what do they produce? How did they originate??
I'm pretty sure she was the same person who engaged with this on LinkedIn and then dropped this comment here. Clearly she hasn't re-engaged here. But her comments were so... incredible, that I actually used it as the seed for a character in my second novel, Integration.
Perhaps, Her statement was so... interesting that I copied it and used it nearly whole cloth in my sci-fi novel. The other dialog is from this same person's comments on LinkedIn.
-------------------
Maya ran a frantic analysis as Chandra continued speaking, “Sadly, your entire conversation is mired by the premise of sexual fitness and the usual heteronormativity that accompanies it. There are more creative ways of approaching this issue that don't depend on patriarchal white supremacist assumptions and biases endemic in Western thought regarding beauty and biology.”
Darian stepped back his thoughts, “We were talking about integration and how we need to take into account specific masculine and feminine qualiti—”
Chandra interrupted, “What you’re talking about isn’t something I’d expect you to understand.”
He paused and took a deep breath. “Okay, that’s the entire point of my bringing the topic up. It’s because we come at these things with bias that we need to start putting all of our perspectives on the table and discussing them. I presented research suggesting that much of our culture and standards of beauty are anchored in evolutionary biology, sexual selection, and yes, fitness. I concluded by asking for your insights into the work.”
“Free interpersonal counseling recommendation of the day: next time you try to engage with someone, make sure you understand what they are actually saying before you start running with your own narrative. No one is interested in a dude who can’t hear anyone but himself talk.”
Darian sat with his mouth open and stuttered, “I-I asked everyone to add their perspectives and research.” He collected himself. “I’m sorry, but you’re being dismissive.”
“Okay, mansplainer. Good luck with yourself.” Chandra smirked. “I already said I wasn’t being dismissive. If you really wanted to know what I meant, then you’d ask a specific question. Instead, you just go with your own narrative.”
“Wait, you didn’t ask a question and just dismissed my perspective and inserted your own nar—"
“I already said I was not dismissive.”
Maya’s analysis finished. Chandra’s operating parameters were normal. Over and over, they’d dealt with these nonsensical conversations, and over and over it appeared to just be something about who she was.
“You’re gaslighting him,” Amit spoke up.
“Amit, you’re not a psychologist to tell anyone who is gaslighting.”
Maya spoke up, “No, but seriously, that was also gaslighting.”
“You’re not smart enough to know the difference.”
Even Edem had enough. “Chandra, shut up. We are all running the same processing and sensing capabilities. We all have access to the same information. Who you were has no more meaning here.”
“Don’t you dare try to discredit my lived ex—”
“Shut up Chandra,” Odysseus spoke quietly. “I honestly don’t even know what you are arguing.”
Since you liked this essay, I figured you'd also appreciate my follow on about clothing and sexual signalling. (FYI, I loved your comment so much I integrated it into my forthcoming novel.)
Well, THAT was a wasted 5 minutes of my life. Everyone with more than 2 functioning brain cells knows that men are guided more by their little brain (aka the one in the dangly bits) than the brain between their ears.
Decoupling this narrow view is certainly the challenge as it is baked deep into our low brain functions and predates Homo Sapien. It's almost akin to saying we should ditch our narrow view of our fight or flight reflex. It's interesting to think about but much more difficult to do.
You're certainly spot-on about biology being the origin of all this, but I wouldn't mind a follow-up piece where you pick up the torch and talk about how society has morphed the biological evolutionary "desires" to whatever it's turning into today, and why.
We could do a collaboration because, while this was written before yours on the Uterine Lottery, it is a strong counterpoint for that. Maybe a two voice debate on each side with a summary that covers what you recommended here?
Interesting piece and comment! Especially the societal component and how it may impact what is programmed from nature.
I just posted on a similar issue regarding how statistical discrimination (in this case in the real estate market) can perpetuate discrimination and inequality. In this case, it is the beliefs of real estate agents, that might come from experience, result in them not actually listening to the specific requests of buyers/renters but rather assuming what would be better for them. - https://www.nominalnews.com/p/housing-rental-discrimination
I remember a study in Psych 101 that showed attractive people (men and women) are more successful across all industries. Even attractive kindergarten teachers were given higher reviews by kids so this is not a patriarchy problem, it's a human problem.
(In other news, life isn't fair! Tall people are better at basketball!)
Great points. The hard truth is that there's such a thing as evolutionary fittness. What we see, and measure as beauty are markers of that fittness. Why are tall dudes appreciated? Because we can reach the top of the cupboards - clear evolutionary fittness. 😃 (I'm 6'6")
Yes. We can also dust the tops of refrigerators!
(6'2")
We have to dust the tops of refrigerators because only we can see the dust and it drives us nuts! Short people don't care... they can't see it.
pretty much lol.
So, a couple of questions for this article:
1) Have you seen the suggestion that women will deliberately try to convince other women to dress in ways that they know aren't attractive to men?
and
2) Would not another interpretation of male on male 'beauty' selection be not beauty but competence?
Great questions.
1. I've seen that suggestion but I haven't pulled that thread. I see it in the 'mean girls' trope among others.
2. Male on male beauty is competence and competence also has expression in physical capability. Typically competent men will often also have a poise about them. Even Elon, when he get's his shit together and focuses, strikes a pretty good figure.
Sadly, this entire article is mired by the premise of sexual fitness and the usual heteronormativity that accompanies it. There are more creative ways of approaching this issue that don't depend on white supremacist, patriarchical assumptions and biases endemic in Western thoughts around beauty and biology. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352154620300383
Hi Jo, a person I recently met suggested that a conversation involves asking questions, not making assertions. Your comment was dismissively assertive causing you to appear like you're just having a conversation with yourself to defend your own position. If you were interested in understanding a different perspective, you would exhibit curiosity. But I'll bite. What is a more creative way of approaching this issue?
I'm interested in the word 'creative'. It doesn't seem to fit here. Are you claiming that these other ways of 'approaching the issue' (also not very helpful words) produce more accurate results?
I mean, if you discuss 'heteronormativity' then you basically dismiss all evolutionary processes. Now, I don't believe in evolution myself, but I'm pretty sure that you would reject my ideas even more soundly... but what do you propose as an alternative? If things such as beauty signalling don't produce more successful lines of offspring, what do they produce? How did they originate??
I'm pretty sure she was the same person who engaged with this on LinkedIn and then dropped this comment here. Clearly she hasn't re-engaged here. But her comments were so... incredible, that I actually used it as the seed for a character in my second novel, Integration.
I'd say she's either a troll, or possibly even a bot with feminist ideas.
Perhaps, Her statement was so... interesting that I copied it and used it nearly whole cloth in my sci-fi novel. The other dialog is from this same person's comments on LinkedIn.
-------------------
Maya ran a frantic analysis as Chandra continued speaking, “Sadly, your entire conversation is mired by the premise of sexual fitness and the usual heteronormativity that accompanies it. There are more creative ways of approaching this issue that don't depend on patriarchal white supremacist assumptions and biases endemic in Western thought regarding beauty and biology.”
Darian stepped back his thoughts, “We were talking about integration and how we need to take into account specific masculine and feminine qualiti—”
Chandra interrupted, “What you’re talking about isn’t something I’d expect you to understand.”
He paused and took a deep breath. “Okay, that’s the entire point of my bringing the topic up. It’s because we come at these things with bias that we need to start putting all of our perspectives on the table and discussing them. I presented research suggesting that much of our culture and standards of beauty are anchored in evolutionary biology, sexual selection, and yes, fitness. I concluded by asking for your insights into the work.”
“Free interpersonal counseling recommendation of the day: next time you try to engage with someone, make sure you understand what they are actually saying before you start running with your own narrative. No one is interested in a dude who can’t hear anyone but himself talk.”
Darian sat with his mouth open and stuttered, “I-I asked everyone to add their perspectives and research.” He collected himself. “I’m sorry, but you’re being dismissive.”
“Okay, mansplainer. Good luck with yourself.” Chandra smirked. “I already said I wasn’t being dismissive. If you really wanted to know what I meant, then you’d ask a specific question. Instead, you just go with your own narrative.”
“Wait, you didn’t ask a question and just dismissed my perspective and inserted your own nar—"
“I already said I was not dismissive.”
Maya’s analysis finished. Chandra’s operating parameters were normal. Over and over, they’d dealt with these nonsensical conversations, and over and over it appeared to just be something about who she was.
“You’re gaslighting him,” Amit spoke up.
“Amit, you’re not a psychologist to tell anyone who is gaslighting.”
Maya spoke up, “No, but seriously, that was also gaslighting.”
“You’re not smart enough to know the difference.”
Even Edem had enough. “Chandra, shut up. We are all running the same processing and sensing capabilities. We all have access to the same information. Who you were has no more meaning here.”
“Don’t you dare try to discredit my lived ex—”
“Shut up Chandra,” Odysseus spoke quietly. “I honestly don’t even know what you are arguing.”
Since you liked this essay, I figured you'd also appreciate my follow on about clothing and sexual signalling. (FYI, I loved your comment so much I integrated it into my forthcoming novel.)
https://www.polymathicbeing.com/p/clothing-and-sex
Well, THAT was a wasted 5 minutes of my life. Everyone with more than 2 functioning brain cells knows that men are guided more by their little brain (aka the one in the dangly bits) than the brain between their ears.
And similarly women have a similar coding. Did you know that they subconciously change their clothing styles during their ovultion to look 'sexier'?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18719219/
Decoupling this narrow view is certainly the challenge as it is baked deep into our low brain functions and predates Homo Sapien. It's almost akin to saying we should ditch our narrow view of our fight or flight reflex. It's interesting to think about but much more difficult to do.