We’ve recently been discussing the impact of women entering the workplace on house prices in the UK (and likely elsewhere too).
Initially, as some households moved to two incomes, they could secure larger mortgages and afford bigger homes. If this was achievable through part-time work, even better—it allowed for a balance between home and work life.
However, over time, as more people could afford to pay higher prices, house prices naturally rose. What started as an opportunity soon became a trap. What was once a choice—to work and contribute financially—became a necessity just to afford a modest family home.
Oh sheesh. That's an interesting Catch 22. I remember a lady I worked with at Honeywell, who couldn't NOT work because they were in over their heads in house and other debt. It's such a rat race isn't it?
I overall agree with this perspective and it's something I've struggled with as a new mom-- I've actually read people online saying "the daycare professionals are trained to do this and could do a better job than me," which struck me as a sad state of affairs to believe, regardless of whether it is true or not.
I think the big philosophical question is how this works in the context of modern solitude-- while raising kids is very important, it can leave women dependent on and even stuck with their husbands. No issue if they find a good man, but if someone ends up in an unhealthy or dangerous situation, having their own independent source of income is a safety net. Perhaps this is the other side of the "village" that we have forgotten about today...
Great points, and others notice that we've lost the village too. Thankfully Lisa has a good network around her but even then, it's still not the village. We are more connected than ever and lonlier including in motherhood.
That daycare professional can do it better? That is a sad state of affairs that we haven't had to face yet. It's an incredible statement and I don't like the implications... Yikes!
It feels like you are working from the wrong definition of third wave feminism and that this is more of a poorly-focused critique of second wave feminism which dealt with life and career issues. Third wave is focused on how women view themselves and their role in the shaping attitudes in the world. Things like body positivity, gender definitions, gender roles, intersectionality, etc. This post reads incredibly similar to many op ed pieces I read and movies I saw in the 1980s and 1990s… so yeah, a criticism of second wave feminism.
Third wave feminism actually approves of things like mothers choosing to stay at home or adapting work schedules around child-raising… basically the way you explain your family’s situation. And it also hopes that you are doing your part in raising the kids (which I assume you are)… encouraging things like men taking paternity leave and adapting work schedules to spend time with family.
All that stated, I would be interested in reading your thoughts on capitalism’s impact on the role of women in society. I’m not anti-capitalism, but, like many economic structures, has resulted in problematic social constructs. Conversely, it has also encouraged the growth in the number of “stay-at-home” dads to roughly 25% of families (compared to roughly 10% about a decade ago).
Anyway, congratulations on being third wave feminists! 🤣
I looked into that when I wrote this, and I think you're describing an emerging fourth wave. 3rd wave started in the 90s, and 4th wave started about a decade ago. But the whole, Boss Bitch idea is still solidly third wave. I also think 4th wave is likely to collapse because it's built on a problematic 3rd wave. I also describe 3rd wave as no longer the celebration of the feminine but the deletion of it.
Lol. Been there. 4th wave would be better built on 2nd wave. The manifestation of the 3rd wave seems to be what we call 'woke.' While 2nd wave was still solidly feminine, something shifted in the third wave that really feels like it's trying to delete the feminine. For all they celebrate women, they celebrate the women that succeed like men.
Again, I’m not familiar with the specifics of each wave, but I disagree with the idea of femininity being deleted. It feels more to me like there’s a trend to allow for a wider definition of what femininity means. Right or wrong, it just feels more akin to the social attitudes I’m seeing.
In talking to a lot of the women I know, especially my wife, their experience is that the 'wider' definition isn't feminine. It really is the expectation that they do everything men do. The definition of masculinity isn't widening either. The widening of feminism also means that they very things that make them feminine become a liability. We wrote one before on how we've worked hard to delete the monthly cycle as just one example:
You can tell that feminism isn't what it calls itself--a movement for social and political equality between the sexes--because there is exactly zero push from any feminist, anywhere, to move women into construction, or plumbing, or electrical work, or trash collection, or truck driving, or any of the other scores of physically arduous and civilizationally essential jobs that are and have always been done almost exclusively by men. There is no interest on the part of feminist academics to analyze the structural misogyny that keeps women out of these remunerative fields. If a university physics or philosophy department is mostly men, it's an outrage, and defacto evidence of the vilest patriarchal chicanery to marginalize women from these prestigious fields. If it's 100% men who haul your garbage off to the dump, or crawl into the sewers to keep the toilets functioning, it's not even worth noticing, and rarely is. Feminism is a women's interest lobby, not an equality movement. Social equality would be a step down for women in many spheres. Why not be honest about it?
There's a solid point there is that they want the prestigious roles, not true equality. Likewise, none complain about the over-representation of women in healthcare and childcare. None are demanding men go there and shoudler that caretaking responsibility which is also interesting.
A disproportionate number of men in one field means, as a matter of mathematical necessity a disproportionate number of women in another. And no one minds, (or should mind, in my opinion). That is, unless it's a field feminists think women should be represented in. Then it's a problem. And you must agree it's a problem, or you're part of the problem. If women are underrepresented in a field feminists don't value--say oil rigging or lumber jacking--it's not a problem at all. It's such a bourgeois movement.
Here's what I like about this tale: you kinda start out in the world going with the flow a bit, just trying to get through life by following the rules as closely as possible.
At some point, you start breaking the rules you think are dumb, and living your own life, apart from what society thinks. You put that middle finger up and say, #nope, I am doing this my way from now on, and the rest of y'all are crazy!
Then, hopefully, you come back and say, "wait, I threw out the baby with the bathwater! Society had *some* good ideas there, and I don't need to dismiss the entire thing in order to have the good parts in isolation."
A few more years go by and you figure out a better way to integrate that one idea you want to keep, and so it goes.
Do you also consider the Black or poor women in this article when you put that quote? It is interesting to compreehend that only White women have been "spared" from work
It takes into all races. It's a universal. It's not that women are spared from exerting effort but by work, the quote and this essay are clearly talking about being spared the same type of rat race expectations that men are.
Great article that dovetails neatly with another Substack post by Anu Joy called Faulty Feminism, in which she laments that women are lauded for being CEOs but not for staying at home to raise their children: https://unpopularpsychology.substack.com/p/faulty-feminism
As a woman, I completely agree, and now I'm sad 🙃 sort of joking, but I think with each new feminist iteration, the village mentality moves further and further away. I too think first and second waves were a good thing, but now I'm wishing I could start over and have children. Society, inflation, and technology are all huge players in the changing tides as well.
This was an amazing article, one in which you provided a great deal of analysis on what the rat race has done to us. At first glance it makes sense for both members of the couple to work together but the trouble is that the rat race has as you pointed out overtaken our lives.
It's devouring women as it has previously devoured men. We need to go back to the way things were done previously. It'll take a lot of work and what not to get there.
My peers who are starting to have kids are dealing with this in spades. I'm a young Millennial and the pressure for me to continue my career is incredible. Worse, the pressure comes mostly from women. I'm planning to have kids and it's the, often Gen X, women who are like "We fought hard for you to be here, don't waste it" while at the same time constantly complaining about feeling empty and unfulfilled. My friends who stay home with kids all seem happier than those who try to balance it all.
Ironically it's my Gen Z friends who seem to not care as much about that pressure.
The exact opposite piece could be written about Rat Race Masculinity, by a woman whose husband raises and educates their children, gives them a healthy and stable home life, and has the flexibility to travel with her.
Agree. It's all about balance. My wife is perfectly capable to go back to an engineering career and I'm perfectly capable of raising the kids. We've even talked of flipping roles and yet, when push comes to shove, she would rather raise the kids and, I won't deny, I'd rather work professionally. We've got a sweet gig right now. We also have friends that do what you're doing. I think where the pinch point comes in is when people are struggling to do both at the same time.
You hit on something really important here. It's hard to really pin it down because we put so much social value on a person's job. You're right, though; we view motherhood as a waste of talent.
Great discussion.
We’ve recently been discussing the impact of women entering the workplace on house prices in the UK (and likely elsewhere too).
Initially, as some households moved to two incomes, they could secure larger mortgages and afford bigger homes. If this was achievable through part-time work, even better—it allowed for a balance between home and work life.
However, over time, as more people could afford to pay higher prices, house prices naturally rose. What started as an opportunity soon became a trap. What was once a choice—to work and contribute financially—became a necessity just to afford a modest family home.
Oh sheesh. That's an interesting Catch 22. I remember a lady I worked with at Honeywell, who couldn't NOT work because they were in over their heads in house and other debt. It's such a rat race isn't it?
It’s a what an economist would call a market failure maybe?
How to we keep the opportunity without creating necessity?
Elizabeth Warren’s Two Income Trap makes exactly this point. In the US.
Good point!
I overall agree with this perspective and it's something I've struggled with as a new mom-- I've actually read people online saying "the daycare professionals are trained to do this and could do a better job than me," which struck me as a sad state of affairs to believe, regardless of whether it is true or not.
I think the big philosophical question is how this works in the context of modern solitude-- while raising kids is very important, it can leave women dependent on and even stuck with their husbands. No issue if they find a good man, but if someone ends up in an unhealthy or dangerous situation, having their own independent source of income is a safety net. Perhaps this is the other side of the "village" that we have forgotten about today...
Great points, and others notice that we've lost the village too. Thankfully Lisa has a good network around her but even then, it's still not the village. We are more connected than ever and lonlier including in motherhood.
That daycare professional can do it better? That is a sad state of affairs that we haven't had to face yet. It's an incredible statement and I don't like the implications... Yikes!
It feels like you are working from the wrong definition of third wave feminism and that this is more of a poorly-focused critique of second wave feminism which dealt with life and career issues. Third wave is focused on how women view themselves and their role in the shaping attitudes in the world. Things like body positivity, gender definitions, gender roles, intersectionality, etc. This post reads incredibly similar to many op ed pieces I read and movies I saw in the 1980s and 1990s… so yeah, a criticism of second wave feminism.
Third wave feminism actually approves of things like mothers choosing to stay at home or adapting work schedules around child-raising… basically the way you explain your family’s situation. And it also hopes that you are doing your part in raising the kids (which I assume you are)… encouraging things like men taking paternity leave and adapting work schedules to spend time with family.
All that stated, I would be interested in reading your thoughts on capitalism’s impact on the role of women in society. I’m not anti-capitalism, but, like many economic structures, has resulted in problematic social constructs. Conversely, it has also encouraged the growth in the number of “stay-at-home” dads to roughly 25% of families (compared to roughly 10% about a decade ago).
Anyway, congratulations on being third wave feminists! 🤣
I looked into that when I wrote this, and I think you're describing an emerging fourth wave. 3rd wave started in the 90s, and 4th wave started about a decade ago. But the whole, Boss Bitch idea is still solidly third wave. I also think 4th wave is likely to collapse because it's built on a problematic 3rd wave. I also describe 3rd wave as no longer the celebration of the feminine but the deletion of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-wave_feminism
I appreciate the response but now I’m stuck doing a deep dive into all the waves of feminism today. 🤣
Lol. Been there. 4th wave would be better built on 2nd wave. The manifestation of the 3rd wave seems to be what we call 'woke.' While 2nd wave was still solidly feminine, something shifted in the third wave that really feels like it's trying to delete the feminine. For all they celebrate women, they celebrate the women that succeed like men.
Again, I’m not familiar with the specifics of each wave, but I disagree with the idea of femininity being deleted. It feels more to me like there’s a trend to allow for a wider definition of what femininity means. Right or wrong, it just feels more akin to the social attitudes I’m seeing.
In talking to a lot of the women I know, especially my wife, their experience is that the 'wider' definition isn't feminine. It really is the expectation that they do everything men do. The definition of masculinity isn't widening either. The widening of feminism also means that they very things that make them feminine become a liability. We wrote one before on how we've worked hard to delete the monthly cycle as just one example:
https://www.polymathicbeing.com/p/breaking-the-cycle
You can tell that feminism isn't what it calls itself--a movement for social and political equality between the sexes--because there is exactly zero push from any feminist, anywhere, to move women into construction, or plumbing, or electrical work, or trash collection, or truck driving, or any of the other scores of physically arduous and civilizationally essential jobs that are and have always been done almost exclusively by men. There is no interest on the part of feminist academics to analyze the structural misogyny that keeps women out of these remunerative fields. If a university physics or philosophy department is mostly men, it's an outrage, and defacto evidence of the vilest patriarchal chicanery to marginalize women from these prestigious fields. If it's 100% men who haul your garbage off to the dump, or crawl into the sewers to keep the toilets functioning, it's not even worth noticing, and rarely is. Feminism is a women's interest lobby, not an equality movement. Social equality would be a step down for women in many spheres. Why not be honest about it?
There's a solid point there is that they want the prestigious roles, not true equality. Likewise, none complain about the over-representation of women in healthcare and childcare. None are demanding men go there and shoudler that caretaking responsibility which is also interesting.
A disproportionate number of men in one field means, as a matter of mathematical necessity a disproportionate number of women in another. And no one minds, (or should mind, in my opinion). That is, unless it's a field feminists think women should be represented in. Then it's a problem. And you must agree it's a problem, or you're part of the problem. If women are underrepresented in a field feminists don't value--say oil rigging or lumber jacking--it's not a problem at all. It's such a bourgeois movement.
Here's what I like about this tale: you kinda start out in the world going with the flow a bit, just trying to get through life by following the rules as closely as possible.
At some point, you start breaking the rules you think are dumb, and living your own life, apart from what society thinks. You put that middle finger up and say, #nope, I am doing this my way from now on, and the rest of y'all are crazy!
Then, hopefully, you come back and say, "wait, I threw out the baby with the bathwater! Society had *some* good ideas there, and I don't need to dismiss the entire thing in order to have the good parts in isolation."
A few more years go by and you figure out a better way to integrate that one idea you want to keep, and so it goes.
It's that tricky pendulum!
Do you also consider the Black or poor women in this article when you put that quote? It is interesting to compreehend that only White women have been "spared" from work
It takes into all races. It's a universal. It's not that women are spared from exerting effort but by work, the quote and this essay are clearly talking about being spared the same type of rat race expectations that men are.
This is the trad model. Wife at home with kids and household responsibilities, husband breadwinner.
There are sooo many other models. Single parent, grandparents raising grandkids, wife breadwinner with househusband.
The rat race is always a choice - keeping up with the Joneses. Another option is scaled back curated lifestyle. Opt out of the rat race.
Yes, a lot of other models. I wasn't suggesting trad wife. That's what we've selected but that's not for everyone.
Great article that dovetails neatly with another Substack post by Anu Joy called Faulty Feminism, in which she laments that women are lauded for being CEOs but not for staying at home to raise their children: https://unpopularpsychology.substack.com/p/faulty-feminism
Yes! I love that one. I actually reference it at the end of Rediscovering the Goddess which is kind of the cornerstone of our series on feminism.
https://www.polymathicbeing.com/p/rediscovering-the-goddess
As a woman, I completely agree, and now I'm sad 🙃 sort of joking, but I think with each new feminist iteration, the village mentality moves further and further away. I too think first and second waves were a good thing, but now I'm wishing I could start over and have children. Society, inflation, and technology are all huge players in the changing tides as well.
Lisa and I agree with that!
Many thanks and my sincere congrats for your realistic perceptions of current affairs and shared family management !!! 👍👍👍 🔥🔥🔥
Western countries desperately need more people like you.
The ugliest fact about the rat race is mostly overlooked:
Even if you win, you're still a rat !!!🐀🐀🐀
Thanks and yes, trying not to be a rat 😀👊🏼🐀
This was an amazing article, one in which you provided a great deal of analysis on what the rat race has done to us. At first glance it makes sense for both members of the couple to work together but the trouble is that the rat race has as you pointed out overtaken our lives.
It's devouring women as it has previously devoured men. We need to go back to the way things were done previously. It'll take a lot of work and what not to get there.
The rat race is a bit inevitable in order to make money but you're right, we sold women a bad bill that their value is in the same.
Thankfully my wife and I aren't playing by those rules. To your point, we have ait of cultural work in store to get us back there.
Yeah, and good on you and your wife. I do hope we reclaim the world soon for both sexes as the modern world is not how man was meant to live.
100% Agree.
My peers who are starting to have kids are dealing with this in spades. I'm a young Millennial and the pressure for me to continue my career is incredible. Worse, the pressure comes mostly from women. I'm planning to have kids and it's the, often Gen X, women who are like "We fought hard for you to be here, don't waste it" while at the same time constantly complaining about feeling empty and unfulfilled. My friends who stay home with kids all seem happier than those who try to balance it all.
Ironically it's my Gen Z friends who seem to not care as much about that pressure.
Great points. I hear it more and more and I hear the frustration in feeling like they have to keep on the treadmill to be successful.
The exact opposite piece could be written about Rat Race Masculinity, by a woman whose husband raises and educates their children, gives them a healthy and stable home life, and has the flexibility to travel with her.
Agree. It's all about balance. My wife is perfectly capable to go back to an engineering career and I'm perfectly capable of raising the kids. We've even talked of flipping roles and yet, when push comes to shove, she would rather raise the kids and, I won't deny, I'd rather work professionally. We've got a sweet gig right now. We also have friends that do what you're doing. I think where the pinch point comes in is when people are struggling to do both at the same time.
You hit on something really important here. It's hard to really pin it down because we put so much social value on a person's job. You're right, though; we view motherhood as a waste of talent.
That’s a weird part I haven’t quite teased out yet either.