35 Comments

The following comment is from an introvert who got over 90% on the Briggs-Myers personality test twice (the accuracy of this test is a topic for another day), and I am an INTJ. I have managed many introverts in the software industry and worked with even more over the years.

I have noticed that personality is not a constant across every aspect of life (how you are at work, home, etc.). I have worked with several people I thought were extroverts, but they were introverts and used their drive time home to recover from all the extroversion they showed during their work hours or doing something alone for an hour or two at home. I have asked some of them why they behaved precisely opposite to their personality; the most common answer was that their job required it.

I love to go to the office and work there and meet with people in a small group (word small is the key) even though I am allowed to work 9 out of 10 days from home every two weeks. The time from my house to the office and back driving, which is about 1 hour and 40 minutes, becomes my “me” time where either I think about a problem or listen to a book and also my time to recover from all the energy drain that has happened during the day.

Now, I want to talk about the anti-social aspect of the article. I do not think that can be tied to one factor, either introversion or extroversion. There is always more to something than a single factor or characteristic, for example, assigning a very high IQ to success. Maybe the phrase “Correlation does not imply causation“ applies here.

I also do not believe introversion is better than extroversion or vice versa, even though some parts of society think one way or another about it. We need to focus on getting the best out of the people irrespective of their personalities on a test, but knowing their personalities helps regardless of how you see them at work.

Expand full comment
author

Great points. I don't think there's a better or worse except for the anti social behaviors. We are social creatures and claiming introversion to hide other problems is my main critique. We are all different and that's fantastic to social engagement.

Expand full comment

There is a bias that people who talk are more intelligent, which favors extroverts. However, it largely depends on the audience.

The common perception is that introverts have to take it in and think it through before they generally talk, which is the opposite of extroverts, who think by talking.

Expand full comment
author

I'm going to contest that one slightly... As someone who talks a lot because I think best by verbalizing, it's a MAJOR liability for me. I'm constantly pointed to the quest one who doesn't talk as the epitome of smart. (And the Bible is full of Proverbs saying the same)

I do think extroverts thinks through talk. But, as an extrovert, I find it funny that my perception of who we think is smart is inverted from yours! 🤣

Expand full comment

I go purely based on what someone is saying and whether it makes sense based on what I know. I also make a point to talk to the the person who did not say a single word even after being given opportunity to learn what they think if I believe the topic is important. They sometimes bring two different perspectives/ideas, which I care more about.

However, I see a lot of people around me who thinks the person who is talking is smarter than people who are quiet.

Expand full comment
Jun 17Liked by Michael Woudenberg

I am an INTJ. I have spent many years managing the observation of fires in the military. (Typically in front of the front lines) listening to our air assets in one ear, our artillery assets in the other ear, (through headphones with multiple channels) and our infantrymen through the loud radio. I miss that job, but it was an overload. I now work for the post office as a letter carrier. Way below my qualifications, but it definitely fits my personality.

I prefer manual work over digital, I get to walk almost 10 miles a day, I see 25 people for about an hour a day, then I I am alone for the rest of the day.

I have the skills and qualifications for higher paying jobs, but there is more than personality type to factor in. Some of us just can’t handle being inside all day. Haha

Expand full comment
author

Introverted certainly but also not at all antisocial. And I too miss the fire support roles running a stack of aircraft in the deserts.

Expand full comment
Jun 17Liked by Michael Woudenberg

Thus the double edged sword of science and data gathering and processing. ADHD has now been monetized and there are lots of 10 question tests that will tell you if ‘you are one’. So is there such a human that is a %100 extrovert/introvert? Shall we start identifying humans down to the Nth percentage point? Seems that the real issue is that the percentage of ‘Introverts’ is growing and the normal- i.e. extroverted, folks are the ones who will have to adapt or avoid to cope with it. In American capitalistic/competitive society we idolize extroverted behavior as being the road to public success. Even when it’s modeled by ‘Introverts’. Is it too much to ask to accept individuals as they are and celebrate the differences and not immediately correlate those as deficiencies (apologies to Rev. Jesse Jackson)? Or is this just another way to reinforce Us vs Them?

Expand full comment
author
Jun 17·edited Jun 17Author

I agree about the problems with hyper measuring. It is certainly a gradient, not a bifurcation. As I discussed in a essay long ago on personality procivities they are... proclivities... not final or absolute. They are useful but can be taken too far.

But we are social creatures. All of us. There is success in social engagement certainly. I'm not sure if 'ts pushed on us by capitalism per se. Heck capitalism is firmly rooted in our social nature and our desire for trust. Americans are also competitive but that's also not unique. Then Native Americans that predate the US were also incredibly competitive.

Where you warn about the over-measuring, I'd also warn about the over attributing. Neither really gets down to the foundation of the matter. They help to consider the problem space but will rarely answer the nutty questions.

Expand full comment
Jun 17Liked by Michael Woudenberg

‘Heck capitalism is firmly rooted in our social nature’ Hang around struggling millennials and you’ll find a lot of questioning about that!😀 Can one be a success in a Capitalist society without being competitive? To me, it seems very similar to what was happening in the sixties with a general question of -‘what the hell did you old people do to us’? As every new generation does. Fortunately, increasing relative acceptance of differences continues on just as it always has. Thanks for your writing.

Expand full comment
Jun 16Liked by Michael Woudenberg

Yesterday BBC published a fascinating article about recent ongoing research into social learning across many species, including humans. Are you or your other readers aware of these novel efforts? Either way this line of research will be fascinating to follow.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv223z15mpmo

Expand full comment
author

I'll take a look.

Expand full comment
Jun 16Liked by Michael Woudenberg

velly velly 'ntrestin thx.

Expand full comment

Fundamentally a clear and absolutely valuable reflection on the topic of being inverted. Like you, I am usually outgoing and socialize even with people I don't know, however, I love spending time at home alone reading or writing, and I spend a lot of the time I appreciate alone. It is fundamental, as you rightly wrote, to point out that the social aspect does not overlap with extroversion, but simply conforms differently externally in different personalities. Being introverted has great potential and absolutely something that sometimes leads people to interact less, but it should not be confused with other types of situations which can, as you were saying, become problematic. I would also like to underline that we are people who on the one hand need, in my opinion, to spend time alone to also understand why or why we are not feeling good about ourselves, on the other hand there are social interactions which, for example for me, they give me energy when I feel that after a tiring day I have reached a difficult point to start again from. Finally, I really liked the insight into chimpanzees and orangutans. Surprisingly, new discoveries are increasingly spreading even among the social mechanisms of these species and I find them absolutely fascinating. Thanks for sharing this.

Expand full comment
author

Great points and thanks for sharing!

Expand full comment
Jun 16Liked by Michael Woudenberg

I think if we're just spitballing here as non-experts (Which after all, is part of the polymathic vibe), the trait of extroversion/introversion exists on a spectrum, which manifests in contexts differently in different humans. I was a military officer, so I had to be very extroverted to do that job effectively. The one big determinant would be "how do you regain energy?", and some humans find that in solitude, while others in convivial connection.

As an primary introvert, I recognize the utility for both good health and ideation that socialization brings. Conversely, you will no doubt agree that solitude for you as an primary extrovert/dynamic personality is beneficial to your deep work/writing.

Time/Energy vampires are a real thing- but they are a very small component of humans. We can't paint all extroverts as energy vampires- that's silly. And you're right to note that interaction/connection is not a zero-sum thing, it's a generative activity.

There are toxic humans who exhibit extroversion and introversion. Humans benefit from a mix of connection and solitude in varying degrees, according to their temperaments.

Expand full comment
author

Yes, completely. The gradient of intro to extroversion is crucial as there are a multitude along it. I feel like I keep getting more introverted over time.

Social systems and learning are our incredible superpower though. That's why I push back on the antisocial no matter where it comes from.

Expand full comment
Jun 16Liked by Michael Woudenberg

Agreed- a human alone in the wilderness can't survive long without all the tools that a massive civilization created. Yes, there are exceptions, but they prove the rule for the 99.99% of humans who are meant to exist in community. The trick is finding the mix of social/solitude that works for each person.

Expand full comment
author

Exactly 💯

Expand full comment
Jun 16Liked by Michael Woudenberg

Good clarification here. We can probably go even further and consider different types of communication or connection, too. For instance, I'm really active here on Substack, even on the social side, but that sort of interaction doesn't drain me at all. It's... fun? Yes, it's fun!

In person stuff is exhausting. Talking one on one on the phone is exhausting. Video meetings are exhausting.

I also really, really like to control my time, so I might be more guarded than others... I notice that all of the latter forms that tend to tire me out are also time-vampires.

Maybe that's a useful idea in this context: it's not about introversion vs extroversion so much as how much of your day you want to allocate toward spontaneous interactions, and so forth. That's a big driver of my own "introversion", I think.

Expand full comment
author

I'm comfortable being by myself or with immidiate family all day. I'm in a lot of social media and you're right. It doesn't tire me as much. But I do like hanging out here and there.

Expand full comment
Jun 16Liked by Michael Woudenberg

Good observation (and I feel the same way) about family or very close friends. That's really different, but of course it's only a small select group of folks. I also get a lot out of in-person interactions - much more than any other type, in fact - it's just that these types are more tiring. It's probably also because way more info is being exchanged, stuff like gestures and body language and so forth.

Expand full comment
author

I will take a one week in person work session over a month online any day. It's so much more productive. The comms bandwidth is amazing in person. I notice it so much more since COVID/remote.

Expand full comment
Jun 16Liked by Michael Woudenberg

I agree - in person work is best when possible, although not every item of work needs equal in-person time. I think about those moments when projects begin or hit serious inflection points: those conversations really need to be held in person whenever possible. I know Zoom or video chat is a good proxy, but it really doesn't feel the same to me.

I would contrast this with something like a weekly check-in for a project that is annual or longer in duration. On the other hand, our core staff meets in person each week at the gym, since it's local and we all meet regularly to train anyway, and there are lots of moving parts at the gym(s).

Lots of little rabbit holes we can go down here!

Expand full comment

iNTROVERTS qah so annoying. dude scream and talk and dance life is too short to be consumed by your own apathy and self-consuming behavior.

Says the guy here struggling to make it out of the house to the gym and buy his girlfriend birthday presents :(

Expand full comment
author

I'm not sure I'm following this comment considering the deliberate way I clarified in the post.

Expand full comment

I am being slightly ironic and self-reflective.

On some days, I am an extrovert. My opinion could be represented by the first couple of sentences (not really, but let's just express it this way).

On other days, I am an introvert.

Sorry for the confusion.

Expand full comment
author

Ah! I'm a bit like that too. I certainly am done 'peopling' sometimes.

Expand full comment
Aug 29Liked by Michael Woudenberg

Well, I was recommended this article. Glad I read through it. Thanks for sharing!

Expand full comment
Jun 18Liked by Michael Woudenberg

I don't know if I consider myself an introvert or extrovert. I don't have a problem with being alone, and I can hang out with a group of friends and cut up with them, laugh with them, go to movies, etc.

I laughingly call myself anti-social, but I'm really not.

I don't hate people, I like mingling with people, I just don't need it 24/7.

Calling an introvert an anti-social is like calling Jeffrey Dahmer a haute cuisine chef.

Expand full comment
author

I'm in the same boat by and large.

Expand full comment
Jun 17Liked by Michael Woudenberg

Damn, I guess I’m “neurodivergent”. Haha. I definitely enjoy a few close friends I can actually connect with. I will always prefer a 5 hour long conversation with a few friends over a crowd any day. Brown alcohol helps in both situations though…

Expand full comment
author

Lol. It bothers me a ton when people claim introversion is nuerodivergence. And I've got a batch of brown alcohol fermenting behind me right now!

Expand full comment
Jun 16Liked by Michael Woudenberg

I would consider myself a hybrid. I could thrive in either scenario of introversion or extroversion. My problem is boredom. Given too many social outings, I’m bored and want solitude. Given too much solitude, I’m bored and want excitement. It doesn’t have much to do with energy for me. Just variety.

You are right about the antisocial behavior. As one who is married to a pure introvert, she can be the life of the party, host social events volunteering, and goes out of her way to coordinate play dates for the kids. But that comes with an energy debt that has to be repaid.

Expand full comment
author

Great points. I like spending a weekend on a mountain with a few friends over a party any day though.

Expand full comment